Curse

Mysterial · Oct 23, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

I dont know why people run two assasins on a split when they could run two powerful and dangerous warriors supported by a monk/rit to stay in the enemy base and kill shit.

Because the assassins don't require any skill. They're a constant. It takes an extremely good or extremely bad player to make anything more or less of most Assassin builds than pressing the buttons in order. A Warrior is almost certainly better if you are a good enough player, but most players in Guild Wars are not good enough.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 23, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

The top teams run assassins. They do not do this because they are bad.

People run assassins because assassins can kill very quickly, which makes it much easier to bypass monk runners. Add that to their vastly increased utility over a warrior (shadow steps, hex snares, and Expose) and you end up with an extremely scary split team.

Of course, assassins are less effective against Super Blockway Fun at the stand, so draw your own conclusions.

Bankai · Oct 23, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

People take two sins over 2 warriors and a monk because two sins have great mobility. With two sins, you can be in the enemy base and have killed two archers before they've sent a flagger back to the gate, and before it's a real threat you have already killed another archer and are busy running back to the gate. Warriors have to rely on adrenaline, so while they can clear out the base more easily, they still have to build adrenaline to build up that killing power. Combine that with the fact that they have to walk to the archers, coupled with the occassional pin down, and you come to the conclusion that before the warriors have even started attacking the first archers, they're already down when the two sins are ganking. Then, it's easy to return to the flagstand and play some hit-and-run stuff, which is very gay, but works. If the enemy constantly has to send its flagger, you can easily screw up their flagging, or force them to not be able to send someone back and whipe their lord area in return.

Lorekeeper · Oct 23, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

i think the book ''ganking for dummies'' was written by an assassin.

basically it said... the secret to ganking was being able to press 7 skills in a particular order quite quickly and that warriors were too dumb to figure it out cos they kept bashing the same few skills over and over till things died instead.

Tyla · Oct 23, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The top teams don't run assassins because they're bad. People run assassins because assassins can kill very quickly, which makes it much easier to bypass monk runners. Add that to their vastly increased utility over a warrior (shadow steps, hex snares, and Expose) and you end up with an extremely scary split team.

Of course, assassins are less effective against Super Blockway Fun at the stand, so draw your own conclusions.

Actually ive found that its because they rely on 100% of their build often to kill,but i HB

but in higher level PvP(such as heroes' ascent or GvG) if the sin goes for one,stops the combo to switch targets but has to wait until the combo recharges.
warriors however pressure while building adrenaline,and can switch targets at any time without the need to wait for a recharge,and also utilising higher armour for more survivability.
Sins also fail at higher level pvp because of the often placed second monk,increasing failing your spike.
sorry if this was mentioned before btw^^

Master Ketsu · Oct 23, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

SP and BH sins fail at higher level. Moebius sins dont.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 23, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

SP and BH sins fail at higher level. Moebius sins dont.

Any sin that's around the flag stand for a period of time gets their ass handed to them, unless of course, you're one of those guilds who run 2xInept mesmers.

erk · Oct 24, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I don't think it's the non-talent button mash that makes Sins good at ganking.
Sins suit ganking, they can shadow step into the base without opening the gate. The NPC's are a know behavior so the target switching ability of a Warrior is not required. Sins can have a kill well before a Warrior can reach a target, let alone build up adrenaline, and be out of there or onto the next target.

A Dervish with an Assassin shadow step could probably fulfill the same role with a bit more usefulness at VoD.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

they can shadow step into the base without opening the gate.

No, they can't.

Legendary Battousai · Oct 24, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

First of all; Most of you are all retarded when it comes to high level GvG and split tactics. You clearly haven't played at that level, thus should not express opinions of the matter if you want to be taken seriously.

Second; Assassins can pull 500+ damage in less than 5 seconds requiring no time to gain adrenaline, and can snare a target from cast range. Their bars are flexible enough to include Exposed so that they can bypass block where warriors can not afford this.

Third; Living as an assassin takes skill. Guild Wars is a two part game - staying alive, and killing. Where you say Warriors take skill in killing, they require less skill in staying alive (higher armor).

Fourth; Top teams run assassins. [RenO//their smurf would be one example].

Fifth; In all situations, Assassins deal more damage in a shorter amount of time; but Warriors cause higher amounts of damage over an extended amount of time. Thus to use an assassin can only be decided based on the objective of your overall build: to outpower a build's healing/prot abilities or to deal damage faster than a build's healing/prot abilities. Sins can either be used in the latter, or used in combination with pressure for a stronger killing force, people will bring them because they are the most efficent means to achieve the goal of a build.

Hopefully some of you will now understand Assassins better ^^

Greedy Gus · Oct 24, 2007, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

Their bars are flexible enough to include Exposed so that they can bypass block

lol, I guess that's one way to put it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

First of all; Most of you are all retarded when it comes to high level GvG and split tactics. You clearly haven't played at that level, thus should not express opinions of the matter if you want to be taken seriously.

You're a joke in the pvp community, you should probably be less patronizing.

Melody Cross · Oct 24, 2007, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

The top teams don't run assassins because they're bad. People run assassins because assassins can kill very quickly, which makes it much easier to bypass monk runners. Add that to their vastly increased utility over a warrior (shadow steps, hex snares, and Expose) and you end up with an extremely scary split team.

Of course, assassins are less effective against Super Blockway Fun at the stand, so draw your own conclusions.

sorta right. Its the flagstand you have to worry about since Anet nerfed splits. Since split teams are not as viable (can still work does not mean splitting is as effective as it used to be before the VoD change) as they used to be, split builds (and characters) see less play.

There has been a long standing dislike of assasins because of the 321 requirement that the lead attack, offhand, dual attack skills promote. TBH, there is not really much difference between a good assassin and a good warrior in this regard, imo. Most people who play both classes (and dervs) tend to 321 their skills period. it doesn't matter if they recycle or build from adrenaline. The builds are just set up that way. Saying that a warrior is better because of their versatility is a bit of a hollow statement. Its their armor and pre-skill DPS that makes the warrior class preferable.

GGs

Surena · Oct 24, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Nerf "Tiger Stance" for zero attribute investment and apply the same to "Flail. These things shouldn't exist, really.

pah01 · Oct 24, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

fifth; In all situations, Assassins deal more damage in a shorter amount of time; but Warriors cause higher amounts of damage over an extended amount of time. Thus to use an assassin can only be decided based on the objective of your overall build: to outpower a build's healing/prot abilities or to deal damage faster than a build's healing/prot abilities. Sins can either be used in the latter, or used in combination with pressure for a stronger killing force, people will bring them because they are the most efficent means to achieve the goal of a build.

Hopefully some of you will now understand Assassins better ^^

Warriors spike harder than assasins too. be quiet.

Melody Cross · Oct 24, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Warriors spike harder than assassins too. be quiet.

Do they? While warriors are better able to pressure backlines through a match, I would think the armor ignoring aspect of the sins chain would put them in favor of damage on spikes.

The problem with sins would then--possibly--be too much damage geared toward spiking and very little geared toward pressure.

If most teams are designed to reach VoD before they seriously start contemplating a roll, it would follow that less damage is required for spiking, and its more about the cycle of the spike to force monks into prema-countering it until they run out of energy. Less health, dealing less healing and fast deep wounds make VoD infusing more difficult to keep up with and VoD spiking easier to pull off. A warriors pressure becomes much more pronounced in that environment as well while a sins lack of DPS becomes even more of a liability.

I wouldn't be surprised if sins can still "outspike" warriors in terms of raw damage. Its just that, the way the game has shifted, there is no longer much point to their frontloaded damage. By the time sins are half-finished with their combo in VoD, the spike has failed or succeeded through the other players and their damage. While the sins are out of action waiting for skills to recycle, the warriors have shifted to the other monk and are bull striking it in the back.

When you look at it that way, and consider the OP Ensign states where power creep has been so effective at buffing physicals compared to what they were (begging the question again: if physicals were top of the heap pre-NF, why the hell did they NEED buffs?), it follows logically that less damage=more kills because a heavy dfense build has more players alive to deal damage.

Its just...too easy to kill things in this game now.

Thats how I understand it anyway. If I am off on something, please enlighten.

GGs

kosh · Oct 24, 2007, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

SP and BH sins fail at higher level. Moebius sins dont.

orly?
thats why [dom]won vs [vd] yesterday? dom used cough cough 2 sp, tree and 3 monks backline...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

First of all; Most of you are all retarded when it comes to high level GvG and split tactics. You clearly haven't played at that level, thus should not express opinions of the matter if you want to be taken seriously.

Second; Assassins can pull 500+ damage in less than 5 seconds requiring no time to gain adrenaline, and can snare a target from cast range. Their bars are flexible enough to include Exposed so that they can bypass block where warriors can not afford this.

Third; Living as an assassin takes skill. Guild Wars is a two part game - staying alive, and killing. Where you say Warriors take skill in killing, they require less skill in staying alive (higher armor).

Fourth; Top teams run assassins. [RenO//their smurf would be one example].

Fifth; In all situations, Assassins deal more damage in a shorter amount of time; but Warriors cause higher amounts of damage over an extended amount of time. Thus to use an assassin can only be decided based on the objective of your overall build: to outpower a build's healing/prot abilities or to deal damage faster than a build's healing/prot abilities. Sins can either be used in the latter, or used in combination with pressure for a stronger killing force, people will bring them because they are the most efficent means to achieve the goal of a build.

Hopefully some of you will now understand Assassins better ^^

since most of "high end" gvgs atm come down to vod. its basically how many npc u can kill before vod. this where those aod/sp sins shine to warriors.

sad but true.
and where is the tactics revolving 2 sins and a monk? u kill npcs, wait 20 sec. kill more npc. rinse, repeat.

edit: sry for dbl post. new isp ftw

Mod edit: np, merge ftw.

Bankai · Oct 24, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

The difference between a sin and a warrior spike is that a sin spike takes longer, but deals more damage and disruption on the spike (knockdown from Horns, for example, is much more useful than the one from shock because it's in the middle of the spike).

Riotgear · Oct 24, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Dual SP spike, tree with Siphon Speed, dual Inept mesmer, 3 monks seems to be the new FOTM. Saying it takes skill is debatable, I wouldn't say "be closer to the archer than the defender when you push the Shadow Prison button" takes a particularly high amount of skill. Especially when you can bury Siphon Speed under a bunch of other crap at the stand then go run back with 33% speed boost. [rawr] beat it yesterday because Shields Up + Hex Eater Vortex > VOD. Great match, it was like a compilation of everything I hate about Nightfall.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 24, 2007, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Dual SP spike, tree with Siphon Speed, dual Inept mesmer, 3 monks seems to be the new FOTM.

That build is pretty shitty, the only form of pressure they can inflict comes from clumsiness and ineptitude, so if you stop attacking there's no pressure.

We beat this build pretty easily by just maintaining veils on our warriors and interrupting/diverting clumsiness and ineptitude.

It's a pretty damn gay build but I don't think it's that strong.

Farin · Oct 24, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

dual clum/inept is gay